Not so good news about rock hawk effigy trails

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Re: Not so good news about rock hawk effigy trails

Postby mtbdcd » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:34 pm

Eddie O wrote:
mtbdcd wrote:I think one of the problems is that Hunters for the most part pay for the WMA's in that they are charged a hefty fee for a WMA Hunting Stamp. Which is what buy's/leases and maintains the land. So there voice probably trumps others with the DNR in relation to WMA use.

Probably not popular, but i would suggest other users of WMA's such as Mountain Bikers also pay for an access stamp. That way we would probably have more of a say so. But maybe not. Hunters are a big............. group. I think Georgia sells close to a million deer licenses every year. And a lot also buy the wma stamp.


Maybe you missed the part where a $750,000 grant was issues for building a trail system. This is a large chunk of tax payer money. Then those that were the stewards and builders of said trail are banned from using it. I see your hunter's fee and raise you one $750,000 trail grant.

Eddie O


No i did not miss it. What budget did that money come from, DNR? If so, i am guessing it was from the WMA Stamp fees. When i first moved to GA, i read that the state took a bunch of the WMA money and spent it on something else vs. acquiring more land for hunters. Caused quite an uproar amount the hunting crowd.

I'm not siding with Hunters, but the financial impact they have is huge. Do the math, several hundred thousand WMA stamps at ??? It was $35, 20 years ago.

I do not believe any general Taxpayer funds go to maintaining or acquiring WMA land. So i am guessing that 750,000 came from WMA stamp fees. However, i bet the DNR has a lot of direct(legal) or indirect(political) motivation to make this land useable by everyone.

Don't know any of this for fact, just what i read about WMA's 20 years ago. Things could have changed substantially.

For me, i am very grateful that we have this land to use. But kind of sucks that some trails would be restricted like this.
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Re: Not so good news about rock hawk effigy trails

Postby SkidSteer » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:35 pm

mtbdcd wrote:I think one of the problems is that Hunters for the most part pay for the WMA's in that they are charged a hefty fee for a WMA Hunting Stamp. Which is what buy's/leases and maintains the land. So there voice probably trumps others with the DNR in relation to WMA use.

Probably not popular, but i would suggest other users of WMA's such as Mountain Bikers also pay for an access stamp. That way we would probably have more of a say so. But maybe not. Hunters are a big............. group. I think Georgia sells close to a million deer licenses every year. And a lot also buy the wma stamp.


To help save underfunded WMA programs, it was proposed that non-hunters be charged a usage fee. DNR killed the proposal for some reason but it will eventually happen.

I'd be interested in seeing the language of how the grant money was to be used. Seems to be a convoluted mess.
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Re: Not so good news about rock hawk effigy trails

Postby mtbdcd » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:40 pm

OnyRS wrote:
Don't hunters get to take home some sort of animal for the cost of their Hunting Stamp?


I believe a hunter can kill 5 deer with a big game license, but the hunting license is separate from the WMA stamp. The WMA stamp allows them to hunt on the WMA's during the allowed periods. So yes they can kill whatever is allowed during the hunting season on the WMA's. It is a good program for hunters, in that a significant portion of the hunting land in GA is licensed directly to hunting clubs. This allows the average hunter a much cheaper alternative.

Just pointing out that their money has some influence. For me, i would not mind paying a fee to use the land if it resulted in more influence.
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Re: Not so good news about rock hawk effigy trails

Postby bikemap » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:53 pm

The only information I have on the RTP grant for Rock Hawk Trails is:
Project ID: 7261
Project State: Georgia
Trail Name: Rock Hawk - Lawrence Shoals Trail
Project Year: 2003
Project Description: maintenance, construct trail
Project Location: Putnam county
Congressional District: 3
Funding Provided: $95,000
Other Funding: $68,230
Other Funding Source: Putnam County
Ownership: Local
Project Activity: Hiking, Running, Walking, Mountain Biking

The previous dollar amount does not seem accurate to me. I would interested to see how that number was calculated. Does anyone have any more detailed information on the grants used for developing mountian bike trails?
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Re: Not so good news about rock hawk effigy trails

Postby seenvic » Wed Apr 01, 2009 1:57 pm

mtbdcd wrote:
Eddie O wrote:
mtbdcd wrote:I think one of the problems is that Hunters for the most part pay for the WMA's in that they are charged a hefty fee for a WMA Hunting Stamp. Which is what buy's/leases and maintains the land. So there voice probably trumps others with the DNR in relation to WMA use.

Probably not popular, but i would suggest other users of WMA's such as Mountain Bikers also pay for an access stamp. That way we would probably have more of a say so. But maybe not. Hunters are a big............. group. I think Georgia sells close to a million deer licenses every year. And a lot also buy the wma stamp.


Maybe you missed the part where a $750,000 grant was issues for building a trail system. This is a large chunk of tax payer money. Then those that were the stewards and builders of said trail are banned from using it. I see your hunter's fee and raise you one $750,000 trail grant.

Eddie O


No i did not miss it. What budget did that money come from, DNR? If so, i am guessing it was from the WMA Stamp fees. When i first moved to GA, i read that the state took a bunch of the WMA money and spent it on something else vs. acquiring more land for hunters. Caused quite an uproar amount the hunting crowd.

I'm not siding with Hunters, but the financial impact they have is huge. Do the math, several hundred thousand WMA stamps at ??? It was $35, 20 years ago.

I do not believe any general Taxpayer funds go to maintaining or acquiring WMA land. So i am guessing that 750,000 came from WMA stamp fees. However, i bet the DNR has a lot of direct(legal) or indirect(political) motivation to make this land useable by everyone.

Don't know any of this for fact, just what i read about WMA's 20 years ago. Things could have changed substantially.

For me, i am very grateful that we have this land to use. But kind of sucks that some trails would be restricted like this.


The $750K came from the Rec Trail Program (RTP)

RTP isn't funded with WMA stamps in any state.

RTP is funded by off road fuel taxes.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/rectrails/
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Re: Not so good news about rock hawk effigy trails

Postby *PJ* » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:02 pm

Man, what a bummer. Hope things turn around. Big thanks to those of you who are working on this issue.
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Re: Not so good news about rock hawk effigy trails

Postby kowen » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:08 pm

(Sorry for the redundant post, was typing mine when seenvic posted his.)

I believe this is indicated to be an RTP (Recreational Trails Program) grant. As you can see in the information below, these are probably Federal funds managed by the Federal Highway Administration, not funds collected by the state.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Recreational Trails Program Overview

The RTP is a grant program. The United States Congress appropriates funding for the Program, and the Federal Highway Administration manages the Program, but it is administered at the state level. In Georgia, administration is handled by staff of the Department of Natural Resources, Division of Parks, Recreation and Historic Sites.

The purpose of the RTP is to provide and maintain recreational trails and trail-related facilities identified in, or that further a specific goal of, the Statewide Comprehensive Outdoor Recreation Plan (SCORP).

Grants are generally awarded on an annual basis after the following process is complete: applicants submit their applications, Program staff rank the applications, the Trails and Greenways Advisory Committee reviews them, the Director of the Division of Parks, Recreation and Historic Sites reviews them, and the Federal Highway Administration approves them.

You can see how Georgia’s funding level compares to that of other states by going to http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/rec ... cfunds.htm.
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Re: Not so good news about rock hawk effigy trails

Postby DoctorJD » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:22 pm

To answer bikemap's question:

The RTP grant only made up a portion of the total funding, there was also a "Scenic Byway's Grant" (#SB-2004-GA-51484) that made up the lion's share of the total dollars (about 445,000.00). This grant was used specifically for the Effigy "infastructure", trailhead parking, walkways, etc. I wasn't until a year later that the RTP grant was secured. It was for $95,000, however, this does not include the dollars that the county suplemented or private donations. As I understand it, that figure is around 70K.
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Re: Not so good news about rock hawk effigy trails

Postby jag3 » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:47 pm

University of Georgia funded around 40,000 and as I understand it-this was for the parking lot & walkway
Putnam County funded 68,000
The grant mentioned by Kevin of 95,000
The Southern Company provided a grant or matched funds around 50,000
Scenic Byway grant of 440,000

Then you add donations made locally-Nothing that I'm aware of came from WMA funding.
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Re: Not so good news about rock hawk effigy trails

Postby kpvsr » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:53 pm

Since there is currently very little hunting activity there maybe this is part of a plan by the DNR to try and increase hunting there and possibly increase revenue for themselves. Just a thought.
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Re: Not so good news about rock hawk effigy trails

Postby bikemap » Wed Apr 01, 2009 2:54 pm

Thanks guys. I see it now --

RTP Funding: $95,000
Putnam County Funding: $68,230
University of Georgia $40,000
Scenic Byway Funding: $442,093
===============================

To get the word out to local cyclists that they should not ride at Rock Hawk, there should be an article in the paper explaining the ban. The article could also highlight the generous funding allotted for the Rock Hawk historic site. Maybe the article could also mention all the volunteer hours provided by local bike riders.
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Re: Not so good news about rock hawk effigy trails

Postby DoctorJD » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:16 pm

bikemap wrote:To get the word out to local cyclists that they should not ride at Rock Hawk, there should be an article in the paper explaining the ban. The article could also highlight the generous funding allotted for the Rock Hawk historic site. Maybe the article could also mention all the volunteer hours provided by local bike riders.


Before we go forward with that, I'm still waiting on an explanation for two things:
A. Why hikers/runners can have access to the trails during this time and cyclists can't.
B. Why the closure isn't consistant with other WMA properties around the state.

Two simple questions, but the silence on their behalf screams, "Because we said so!" If there is a legitimate reason for this, why not tell us? It would quell a lot of speculation that there is more to this. After all the work we've put in out there they at least owe us that. Plus, it would be nice to have that information available for the article.
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Re: Not so good news about rock hawk effigy trails

Postby Mark D. » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:20 pm

Eddie O wrote:
mtbdcd wrote:I think one of the problems is that Hunters for the most part pay for the WMA's in that they are charged a hefty fee for a WMA Hunting Stamp. Which is what buy's/leases and maintains the land. So there voice probably trumps others with the DNR in relation to WMA use.

Probably not popular, but i would suggest other users of WMA's such as Mountain Bikers also pay for an access stamp. That way we would probably have more of a say so. But maybe not. Hunters are a big............. group. I think Georgia sells close to a million deer licenses every year. And a lot also buy the wma stamp.


Maybe you missed the part where a $750,000 grant was issues for building a trail system. This is a large chunk of tax payer money. Then those that were the stewards and builders of said trail are banned from using it. I see your hunter's fee and raise you one $750,000 trail grant.

Eddie O


LOL
"talk of politics and global warming makes my head hurt"-Mark D.
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Re: Not so good news about rock hawk effigy trails

Postby mtbdcd » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:52 pm

I'm not on the Hunter's side at all. Not supportive of their activity at all, just the opposite. Just know Hunter's pay a lot of money(millions every year) and maybe that is why DNR gave them their wish.
And your point about 750K of taxpayer money is very valid. That is a chunk of change from Taxpayers and the results are trails closed for several months of the year. Seems like someone had a bone to pick with MTB'ers somewhere.
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Re: Not so good news about rock hawk effigy trails

Postby kpvsr » Wed Apr 01, 2009 3:59 pm

Time to contact the I-Team on Fox 5 Atlanta! :P

Seriously though, with the amount of time and money put into the project they just may put it on the air.
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